The CIA’s 60-Year History of Fake
News
How the Deep State Corrupted Many
American Writers
By Robert Scheer
March 19, 2017 "Information
Clearing House"
- "Truth
Dig"
-
In this
week’s episode of “Scheer Intelligence,”
Truthdig Editor in Chief
Robert Scheer
interviews Joel Whitney, author and
co-founder of
Guernica
magazine.
Whitney’s
new book, “Finks:
How the C.I.A. Tricked the World’s Best
Writers,”
explores how the CIA influenced
acclaimed writers and publications
during the Cold War to produce subtly
anti-communist material. During the
interview, Scheer and Whitney discuss
these manipulations and how the CIA
controlled major news agencies and
respected literary publications (such as
the Paris Review).
Their talk comes at a particularly tense
time in American politics, as
accusations of fake news and Russian
propaganda fly from both sides of the
aisle. But the history detailed in
Whitney’s book presents a valuable
lesson for writers hoping to avoid
similar manipulations today.
Scheer opens the discussion with the
question: “Were they really tricked?”
“It could have been ‘paid,’ it could
have been ‘subsidized,’ it could have
been ‘used,’ it could have been
‘collaborated with,’ ” Whitney responds.
“So yeah, it might have been any other
verb there besides ‘tricked.’”
The two then delve into the tactics used
by the CIA to influence writers. Whitney
notes that the fearful political
atmosphere at the time led to “secrecy
being used to preside over and rule over
the free press—which we’re supposed to
be the champions of.”
“They drank the Kool-Aid and thought
they were saving freedom,” Scheer
agrees.
The discussion underscores the need for
analysis of Cold War-era media as a way
to avoid propagandized journalism today.
Scheer says, “I look at the current
situation, where we don’t even have a
good communist enemy, so we’re inventing
Russia as a reborn communist power
enemy.”
“I
call it superpolitics,” Whitney
concludes, “where essentially there’s
something that’s so evil and so
frightening that we have to change how
our democratic institutions work.”
Listen to the full interview below.
Don’t have time to stream the full
interview? Download it and listen on the
go by clicking on the “arrow” button.
You can also read a full transcript of
the conversation below.
—Posted by
Emma Niles
Listen to the full interview below.
You can also read a full transcript
of the conversation below.
—Adapted from Truthdig.com
Transcript
Robert Scheer: Greetings. This is
another edition of Scheer Intelligence.
I’m Robert Scheer, but the intelligence
comes from my guests. And in this case
it’s Joel Whitney, who’s just written a
really terrific book called “Finks: How
the C.I.A. Tricked the World’s Best
Writers.” And actually, my only
disagreement with the book is a little
bit with the title. So let me just begin
there, and you can lay out the thesis.
But it’s the story, of course, about how
the CIA secretly funded the Congress
[for] Cultural Freedom and lots of other
organizations, and got involved right
after World War II and continued right
through the Cold War, basically
manipulating publications and movies,
everything else, to so-called “win the
battle of ideas” with the Soviets, and
ended up in the process adopting some of
their more nefarious means. But when you
say the CIA tricked the world’s best
writers, you’re talking about a pretty
sharp group of people, like [George]
Plimpton and [William] Styron and all
that. Were they really tricked?
Joel Whitney: Well, that’s a great first
question. I did an event in Berkeley
last week, and actually had a Paris
Review magazine veteran come by and ask
me essentially that same question. And
his reservation was the word “finks” and
the word “tricked.” More “finks,”
though, which he thought was derogatory
as someone who had been at the Paris
Review. He, you know, he may have felt
that there was some, whether
well-intentioned or misinformed, idea of
patriotism. And “finks,” of course, as
you know when you finish the book, comes
from one of my characters. “Tricked” was
the word I settled on, “how the CIA
tricked the world’s best writers;” it
could have been “paid,” it could have
been “subsidized,” it could have been
“used,” it could have been “collaborated
with.” And I actually envisioned at one
point—I couldn’t sell this to my
editor—a cover where in sort of lighter
shadow behind the word “tricked” would
be all those other words going up and
down the front of the book. Yeah, I
think a lot of the writers had different
motives. And actually, some of them,
throughout the book, you’ll see—you’ll
remember they changed their minds. So
some of them were more in favor in the
early fifties; by the time the Vietnam
War hits, and the CIA’s reputation is a
little more tarnished, some of them were
less enthralled with the agency and
other kinds of anti-communist
institutions. So, yeah, it might have
been any other verb there besides
“tricked.”
RS: What I found, and knowing some of
these people, they’re a pretty sharp
bunch. I mean, this really goes to, I
think, more David Halberstam’s idea in
“The Best and the Brightest,” his
classic work on what happened in
Vietnam. That these were the best
products of the meritocracy; this was
the creme de la creme of Harvard and
Yale, and the Yale Review, and all that
sort of thing; the brightest minds, the
most talented people. And for whatever
reason, sometimes for greed but also,
you know, they bought into it—what they
bought into was basically a stupefyingly
simplistic and wrong-headed notion of
what was going on in the world. That’s
the overwhelming thought I came away
with from your book, which is great in
detail, great storytelling; you know,
whether it’s about Pasternak or whether
it’s about Sontag or anybody—I mean,
they’re all in there, there’s a lot of
really rich detail. But the overwhelming
sense that I got from this book was how
once again, using Halberstam’s idea of
“The Best and the Brightest,” how did
this group of people—who certainly were
literate and well-traveled and tested
well and got great grades at the best
schools and studied under the best
people—get it so wrong?
JW: Yeah, I think the idea of the
oversimplification that you described in
your question, I think that’s accurate.
And I think the sharper ones were
further, were more removed from that
simplification. And then what you see
are several groups in the anti-communist
movements, several actual organizations
that were sort of recruiting people that
were representing the CIA’s slush funds,
who are luring people in who have
standing internationally, people who can
do some soft power work but might, if
they know exactly what’s going on, they
might be a little too critical of it. So
if you start, for instance, in Berlin
after World War II, you have a group of
people who were familiar with Stalinist
methods to the degree that perhaps they
were traumatized by them. So those
people were sincere, but they weren’t
necessarily nuanced in their
understanding of maybe how to fight
totalitarianism. They thought
essentially that the best method was to
fight fire with fire. So in a way, these
were guys who had a conspiracy theory.
Their conspiracy theory went like this:
Soviet Russia is penetrating
organizations around the world; they had
some evidence, Comintern and other
organizations. But they had no sense of
scale, and I think by the time you have
McCarthy discredited in the middle
fifties, some of these guys were
probably willing to dial back some of
their initial fears. But by then, they’d
set this great movement in motion where
it was just huge amounts of money that
the CIA could offer. And so what I look
at, as you remember in the book, is just
I look at these little intellectual
magazines that were initially recruited
to do two things: one, to push back
against anti-Americanism. So they wanted
to tout and brag about our high culture,
because in Western Europe, which was the
key battleground, we were known for our
pop and low culture; we were known for
martial funds, we were known for our
tanks. So one can sort of appreciate
that. But then it comes with another
idea, which is to discredit the Soviet
Union as often as can be. And when you
see that, how it plays out, you start to
see disinformation beginning to spread.
And what you see presiding over both
sides of that idea is a regime of
secrecy, which is problematic when
you’re talking about magazines, because
you’re talking about secrecy being used
to preside over and rule over the free
press that we’re supposed to be the
champions of.
RS: The reason your book is compelling,
and I think people should read it—and
let me just be clear right up front, I
read it straight through, [laughs], I
think I had one breakfast break. But I
enjoyed it enormously, because it really
makes these characters come alive. And
they’re not cardboard characters,
whether you’re talking about Irving
Kristol, or you’re talking about, you
know, Irving Howe or George Plimpton or
anybody—there’s whole bunches of them
run through the book, and you really are
introduced to the cultural life of Paris
and London and New York and so forth.
But again, I keep getting back to this
one question, you know; there’s a thing
in the newspaper business, I remember
one editor telling me “too good to
check.” And maybe when somebody’s
writing you an actual check, and you’re
getting money and you’re getting
first-class airfare, and they’re funding
your wonderful magazine, your little
magazine, so you don’t have to go to
your parents—because most of these
people were super rich, and they could
just go to their uncle or father or
something and get some more money. But
still it was now, you know, classy to
get it from some secret Fleischmann’s
Yeast or something [Laughs], that was a
front for the CIA. You know, and so
yeah, you’re involved in intrigue and
all that, which I guess a lot of writers
like to be involved in; but the idea
that they drank the Kool-Aid and thought
they were saving freedom is the part
that I still don’t get.
JW: It does seem like there was a big
pivot after World War II, and I think
one of the organizations that normalized
the idea of secrecy ruling over the
media—which is eventually what you end
up with in a program like this—was the
OSS. A lot of the people, the founding
lights of the CIA, came to see that the
OSS had done some great work in, as they
saw it, thwarting the Nazis during World
War II. So a lot of the people who
founded the CIA, they understood that if
the Soviet communists were using secrecy
to penetrate our organizations, instead
of thinking of how do we stop the
penetration, it seems like it turned
into a system of let’s preemptively
penetrate our own organizations, just to
make sure we can watch them and keep
them on the up-and-up. And of course one
of the ways that they keep people in
line, as you say, was through the money.
So in terms of the official magazines
that the CIA created and presided over,
the British spy who overthrew Mosaddegh,
he would have been, in June of 1953—his
name was Christopher Montague
Woodhouse—he would have been working on
the CIA magazine for London, Encounter.
He would have empowered the two editors,
one American, one Brit, Stephen Spender
on the British side, Irving Kristol on
the American side, both working out of
London; one paid through secrecy of the
British state, one paid indirectly
through the CIA. The spy overseeing
this, Woodhouse, he would have then
turned in the late summer towards
overthrowing the democratically elected
leader of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddegh. And
then later, he’s also feeling so good
about this system of, what essentially
you have are coups as covert ops and
then long-term soft-power propaganda,
also on the covert ops side of the CIA
and British secret services. So he feels
so good about this that he’s later on a
contributor to Encounter. So magazines
like Encounter, they were created in
Paris, they were created in Italy, they
were created all over Europe; and then
they spread to the Nordic countries,
they spread to the Third World. What
they did was they involved people at
different levels. So the people in the
know would be people who were editors
and regular contributors, and it would
even for them be kind of an open secret.
So one person I interviewed was a guy
named Nelson Aldrich, and he
collaborated first—well, he worked for,
I should say, first with the Paris
Review. The Paris Review was not one of
those magazines created by the CIA, or
if it was, it was sort of indirectly
used. It was used as Peter Matthiessen,
the writer who was one of its founders,
as his cover in Paris in the early
fifties. But then he says he resigned
from the CIA and there was no
connection. Well, later on, George
Plimpton, the famous writer and man
about New York, was the public face of
the Paris Review through its formative
years and for many decades; he found a
way to get CIA money through the
Congress for Cultural Freedom, its
cultural propaganda front. So that’s a
second tie. Later on in my research, I
found a third tie through a founding
managing editor. So you have such a vast
network of money for culture that in one
organization, one magazine that’s sort
of only a tangential CIA asset or
friend, you can find three big separate
ties.
RS: I’m glad I got this chance to talk
to you, because the book reads the way
you talk. It’s not vindictive, it’s not
smearing people, it’s not doing what
they did, actually. What these folks did
in the name of anti-communism was they
were perfectly happy, thrilled, to sail
out and destroy their buddies, their
college classmates, to smear them, smear
intellectuals that they respected.
That’s really what happened. You know,
you’re using your power, your clout. And
there’s an analogy right now, I think,
with this whole discussion of fake news.
These people were actually doing fake
news. They were being paid by a
government agency, the CIA, cooperating,
following instructions, and sometimes
censoring articles, editing them and so
forth, so they’re part of an official
government propaganda regime that
continues right up through Vietnam and
everything else. And so they become a
caricature of the whole, you know,
democratic experiment, which is
certainly not what the Founders had in
mind. And they get very vindictive
towards people who disagree with the
narrative. And the reason I began the
way I did, asking you—the irony here is
the people who objected to their
official narrative turned out to be,
quite early on, right. So for example,
you mentioned Nelson Aldrich, and you
have him placed as one of those people
who knew what was going on. Well, I knew
Nelson Aldrich as a guy I would chat
with at Elaine’s in New York for years.
And by that point, of the sixties, he
knew it was all bogus. He was not a
supporter of the Vietnam War. And in
fact he wrote a very good book about the
elite and how out of touch they are, the
economic elite, and so forth. And I
found him quite supportive of Ramparts,
you know; I couldn’t get any money from
him, from his wealthy relatives, but
nonetheless he seemed like a—
JW: [Laughs] Gotta try.
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RS: And you mentioned another person,
you know; one point where, I don’t know,
I was a little unhappy with, you
mentioned Frances Fitzgerald, the famous
writer of “Fire In the Lake” and “Wild
Blue Yonder,” great journalist; and her
father was a well-known, you know,
deputy head of the whole CIA, Desmond
Fitzgerald. But the fact is, Frances
Fitzgerald also—she’d studied with
Zbigniew Brzezinski, she’d gone to the
best Ivy League schools—but the fact is,
very early on, she embraced an opposite
view. She saw that the Vietnam War was
bogus, it was a fiction, and the claims
made were wrong. And she wrote a
devastating book on it very early on. So
it just seemed to me, the crowd you’re
describing, I’m not going to minimize
the damage they did, because they
stifled debate; they prevented a good
discussion from taking place that would
have avoided Vietnam. OK? It would have
avoided the confrontation with Cuba. It
would have avoided the overthrow of
Mossadegh, you know, and we go down the
whole list. So I’m not minimizing the
destructive, you know, impact that they
had and the stupefying, really, the
ignorance of the debate. And I’ll just
give two examples of that, you know, but
I want to get back to how quickly some
people, at least, escaped this net,
including William Styron and others. But
two villains that really emerged in
their world were Bertrand Russell and
Jean-Paul Sartre. And it’s interesting,
because both of those people,
particularly Bertrand Russell, had
impeccable anti-communist credentials.
Bertrand Russell, you know, had famously
attacked communism as an evil, and
anti-intellectual and stifling of
thought; and certainly Sartre had shown
a considerable independence. But yet
because they teamed up to do something
called the Vietnam War Crimes
Commission, and they challenged America
in a very fundamental way on what it was
doing, not only in Vietnam,
elsewhere—this same crowd, the ones that
were still influential, went out to
destroy Sartre and Russell. So what I
want to get across is it’s not minor
what they did; your book exposes the
fundamental distortion of American
politics during the post-Cold War
period, which is where all the stupidity
came from. My only question—and it makes
for a great read, and it really reveals
a lot. I look at the current situation
where we don’t even have a good
communist enemy, because the communists
that are in power are the ones we’re
trading with in [China] now. So we’re
inventing Russia as a reborn communist
power or enemy, and we have this whole
campaign now as if, you know, now Putin
is the evil empire. And so there is a
current echo in sort of how easy it is
to manipulate people.
JW: Yeah. Well, just on the first point
you made about the meanness or the lack
of meanness in the book, that was
something I wanted to be very
conscientious about when I went through
edits with my editor. There’s a great
scholar and writer at UC Berkeley who
said something that I saw quoted
recently: “Be tough on the institutions,
and be soft on the people.” And that was
reinforced again and again when I saw
some of the collaborators with these
cultural fronts of the CIA changing
their minds, learning from things like
Vietnam. And seeing them change their
minds actually gave me a lot of hope,
because you know, you can be on the
payroll; you can be someone who’s an
operator; you can be someone who thinks
of the world as a good side and a bad
side, and therefore whatever we do
represents the good side. And then you
can wake up from that. You mentioned
Sartre; he was absolutely attacked by
one of the CIA’s magazines, and his
magazine was seen as a threat, and the
French magazine Preuves, based out of
Paris, was in some ways an answer to
Sartre’s magazine and his attempts to
deal, to treat the United States the way
it should be treated. When it was going
against its values, he would call them
out on that. Neruda, Pablo Neruda, the
poet, was another one who suffered
severe reputational damage by this
cultural front of the CIA, the Congress
for Cultural Freedom. When they found
out, some of these operators found out
that he was up for the Nobel in ‘63,
they wrote a quiet, sort of secret white
paper about him, and they made some
links to Stalinism through his Stalin
[Peace] Prize. And it was, of course,
the year that Stalin had died that he
took it. And they also made up some
stuff that I think was, you know,
viciously untrue, that he was in on the
attempt to murder Trotsky. So this is
reputational damage that then is doubled
later by the CIA’s actual overthrow of
his friend in Chile, Salvador Allende.
So what I see is if someone’s being
physically harmed by the CIA, that’s one
thing that we’ve accounted for in a lot
of historical books and political books;
if someone’s being reputationally
damaged by CIA propaganda, you see that
in some of the academic books that look
at the so-called cultural Cold War. But
I wanted to remove the wall between
those two areas and show that both of
those things happened in a context where
a lot of people were just made terrified
by the fact that you had evil on one
side and a fighting-fire-with-fire
mentality on so-called, quote unquote,
our side.
RS: [omission] We’re back with Joel
Whitney, and the book is called “Finks:
How the C.I.A. Tricked the World’s Best
Writers.” So, Joel, let me ask you a
question that I was about to ask when we
took our break. I’m going to talk a
little bit about the CIA, because the [sub]title
of your book is “how the CIA tricked the
world’s best writers.” And there we get
into a pretty sinister cast of
characters. And I just want to bring up
one who shows up a lot, because I know
something about him from my own Freedom
of Information files, because I was the
editor of Ramparts and I was involved in
some of this stuff. And that’s James
Jesus Angleton. And I am the proud
possessor of a record in which J. Edgar
Hoover, at one point after all the
Ramparts stuff, exonerated me and said
he’s going to close the Scheer case—I
was the last, well, not the last, but I
was the editor of Ramparts at a critical
moment. And he had investigated me at
the behest of the CIA and, largely,
James Jesus Angleton. And he said,
there’s no there there; this guy likes
to have a good time, he wants to meet
women, he wants to have good meals
[Laughter], but the fact is we’ve been
investigating him for, I don’t know what
it was, five years around the clock and
there’s no there there. OK. And James
Jesus Angleton, and others in the CIA,
denounced him! And said, you can’t do
this. You know, and so forth; I wasn’t
the only one they wanted to go after.
But you know, these guys were playing
hardball. And they wouldn’t mind, when
you traveled to another country—because
I found myself getting harassed in
different countries. I was in jail
briefly in Mexico and I was in jail
briefly in Lithuania, you know, and
other places, Algeria and so forth; I
didn’t want to get paranoid about it,
but they had a reach worldwide where
they could make your life really rough,
or end it, for that matter. So what
about James Jesus Angleton? What have
you learned about this guy?
JW: Well, he was part of this post-OSS
group that understood how important
spying and covert ops had been in World
War II. And from there, he makes all
kinds of terrible mistakes. He and his
group believed essentially that they
needed to do better propaganda than the
Soviets did, and one of the ways that
they thought they could do it better was
to do it subtly and, you could say,
secretly. So when this program is
threatened with exposure in ‘64, ‘65,
‘66 and ‘67 through various sources like
Ramparts and The New York Times, this
privilege of secrecy that they enjoyed
was not something that they were willing
to give up. So you have something that
is described as relatively benign, this
funding of culture through the Congress
for Cultural Freedom, a funding of
student movements through the National
Student Association, the funding of
labor unions that would be less
communist-influenced than the
communist-dominated ones that they
presumed were out there. These were seen
as benign answers. They were reactions
to Soviet penetration. So secrecy is a
key to making them work. So even if you
want to make the argument that, for
instance, the Congress for Cultural
Freedom never censored its
magazines—which I think has been
severely disproved; they did censor.
Even if you wanted to say that they
published all sorts of great
writers—which clearly they did; that was
part of the subtlety of it and part of
the brilliance of it, and part of the
soft-power charm of it. Even if you
wanted to say all that, when the secrecy
is exposed by honest accounting in the
media, the fourth estate, the
adversarial media of American bragging
around the world, they are so attached
to their secrecy, and so upset, the CIA
group led by people like Angleton, that
they commit something that is about as
anti-American as anything in our system.
Which is: more secrecy, more media
penetration to the point of penetrating,
first, the anti-Vietnam War press;
second, the student, the college student
newspapers and press; the alternative,
so-called, press. Which essentially is a
license to do what they did later. So
that first thing I described, where
Ramparts was penetrated, leads to
Operation CHAOS, presumably; that leads
to Operation Mockingbird in the
seventies. By the time we have Carl
Bernstein reporting on Operation
Mockingbird, and John Crewdson reporting
on its international equivalent in the
New York Times—Bernstein in Rolling
Stone—you essentially see the CIA trying
to have at least one agent at every
major news and media organization it can
do in the world. And Crewdson reporting
in the Times at the end of 1977
essentially says that they had one agent
or contract agent at a newspaper in
every world capital on Earth. That’s
astonishing. They could get stories
killed or get stories to run that
portrayed the CIA’s views in a favorable
way, or kill them if they did not.
RS: Let me point out—yeah, go ahead—
JW: And so Angleton is behind a lot of
this, just to sort of circle back to
your question, but go ahead.
RS: No, well, but I want to get
at—there’s an interesting contradiction
here. Because this is not benign. But
what happens is, you create an
atmosphere in which—and you could have
it in a contemporary moment; oh, let’s
get rid of Assad in Syria, for example.
That sounds like a good liberal thing to
do. And yes, there are great human
rights violations by this dictator; yes,
he kills innocent people. So did Stalin.
Yes, yes. So did Khrushchev. OK. We get
that. And then you build that up into an
argument of, that there’s war going on
between obvious good and obvious evil,
and any discussion about any gray area
is some kind of moral equivalency; it
means you’re insensitive, it means
you’re saying the same. And the irony
here is that—and Angleton was the
product of an elite education; actually,
he was half Mexican, so maybe that gave
him a burden in those circles. But the
fact is, he could drink cocktails with
the best of them. And what came out of
this was an arrogance. That because you
were on the side of the angels, the best
and the brightest of Halberstam, it was
OK—Robert McNamara famously, you know,
one of the Ford company geniuses and so
forth—it was OK to kill three and a half
million Indochinese, including and in
addition to almost 59,000 Americans.
Because you had figured this out, you
know, and you knew who were the good
guys and bad guys. Now, looking back on
it, it’s just of course absurd, you
know. That you’re in this country that
had no way of inflicting damage on us,
and that had a thousand years of
hostility towards China, and had no real
interest in Russia, and it didn’t fit
the model at all. And you know, in terms
of the specific incidents that you have
a chapter on, this Michigan State
project, where Stanley Sheinbaum, who
you describe as a whistleblower, which
he was—you know, I wrote about that
before there was a Ramparts. I wrote
about it in a report to Robert Hutchins’
Center for the Study of Democratic
Institutions. Henry Luce was on the
board, it was very respectable. But,
because Stanley Sheinbaum, one of the
few individuals that I interviewed to do
that story, he had seen the horror of it
and he was willing to speak out. None of
the others were. By the time I got to
Stanley, I had gone through almost every
professor, everyone had worked for
either the CIA—that I knew about—or had
worked on this Michigan State project,
which was foul from the beginning. You
take a guy, Ngo Dinh Diem, who didn’t
even share the religion of 90 percent of
the people there; you find him in a
Catholic monastery in New York and you
decide he’s going to be the George
Washington of Vietnam [Laughter], and
you get into this crazy intervention,
right? And then 10 years after you do
that, prevent the Geneva accords and
everything, in the early sixties—the
only reason I knew about that story, I
went to the stacks at Berkeley, I wanted
to know, what’s this place Vietnam
about. And one of the guys involved in
this thing had died, and his widow had
donated his papers. It was totally
accidental. I blew the dust off the
papers and I found the evidence of their
engineering torture and everything else
to keep this guy Diem in power, and
fortunately Stanley Sheinbaum was
willing to say it. The depressing thing
about that, and about why we don’t have
more Edward Snowdens and so forth, is
none of the other folks talked about it.
They all stonewalled me. And they didn’t
come clean.
JW: Yeah. It feels very lonely to be a
whistleblower.
RS: Well, and what’s interesting about
your book is there’s denial—even, you
know, Peter Matthiessen - I mean,
Matthiessen’s a very good author, very
interesting guy and everything. But at
the end, he’s still putting down a
documentary filmmaker who he had
actually told his story to. And they
don’t really come clean, as you point
out in your book. That’s why your book
is so important. Because the story is
not well known.
JW: The story is not well known. It gets
buried, it gets buried under other
things. I mean, the beginning of your
question and your comment, I see it
now—in my own notes, I call it
superpolitics. Where essentially there’s
something that’s so evil and so
frightening that we have to change how
our democratic institutions work, and
whether they remain democratic. And so
on the first part of your question,
yeah, there was this notion that since
we’re on the side of the angels we can
do a lot of things that we wouldn’t
normally do to fight Lucifer. And what
you end up with—I think anyone who uses
the moral equivalency argument, you
know, you can’t compare American crimes
to Stalinist crimes—it starts off as
true, and the more you use it, the more
it’s a shield to make us more
Stalin-like. I mean, I don’t compare
American history or American foreign
policy to anything that Stalin did,
except when I do in detail. And people
who talk about Vietnam, if you count all
of Southeast Asia, some of them like
Viet Nguyen, the current Pulitzer Prize
winner for fiction for his book The
Sympathizer, he talks about it in terms
of six million lives lost. Which is
getting up into monumental numbers.
RS: The book is “[Finks:] How the C.I.A.
Tricked the World’s Best Writers,” by
Joel Whitney. And the more I talk about
the book, the more I think, yes, they
were tricked. Because they—well, it’s
not a bad title, because—
JW: [Laughs] I used a soft sell over
you, let you talk yourself into it.
RS: Well, no, but the fact of the matter
is these were—again I get back to
Halberstam’s “The Best and the
Brightest”—they were smart people. And
yes, I’ve known them; I’ve known them
personally, many of them. And they
weren’t, you know, they didn’t want
terrible things to happen, and a good
number of them denounced the previous
stuff. And so I guess “tricked” works.
But the problem is, it’s not a game in
which there are not victims. You know,
you claim you’re going to make it a
safer world and you make it a far more
dangerous world, and you end up with a
situation that Martin Luther King in his
famous Riverside Church [speech]
described, he said, you know, we’re
talking about violence; he said my
government today is “the [greatest]
purveyor of violence in the world”
today. And we got to that through a
pattern of to stop being critical of our
government, to stop thinking about it.
And so I’m really happy that we have
this book, [Finks:] How the C.I.A.
Tricked the World’s Best Writers,” Joel
Whitney, available—you get it from OR
[Books]/Counterpoint. So thank you.
JW: Thank you.
RS: Our producers are Joshua Scheer and
Rebecca Mooney. Our technical team are
Kat Yore and Mario Diaz here at KCRW.
Join us again next week.